Saved by grace in the Sacraments - 7

 

De Maria

3 hours ago (edited)

 BL-Purgatory and indulgences are both taught as truth but the only way to provide biblical verses to prove them is by taking verses out of context. DM-Ok, well thanks for taking up the challenge. DM-Let's see. Thanks for combining Purgatory and indulgences since they are basically the same Teaching. Both are based on the fact that there is a Heavenly Treasury where our good works are stored and God uses them to cleanse our souls of sin. BL-Well that sounds good but can you back that " based on the fact that " up with scripture? DM-Yes. Jesus said: Matt 6:20 But lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven How do we do that? In that chapter, Jesus named many things we must do. verse 1-4 give alms verse 5-12 pray verse 13-15 forgive verse 16-19 fast These lead to the conclusion that if we do all these things, we lay up treasure in heaven. Do you have an alternate understanding of this chapter? BL-God uses our good works to cleanse our souls of sin ? So all we need to do is accept Tobit 12:9 as truth and we no longer need Jesus dieing on the cross for all of our sins and washing us in His blood to cleabnse us of all unrighteousness. 1 John 1:9 DM-Sounds as though you want to be rid of the entire Bible and rely only on Tobit 12:9. Whereas, we accept the entire Bible. But lets focus on Jesus death on the Cross for a moment. You seem to believe that He died on the Cross in order that you would not have to do anything else, but skip your way into heaven. Whereas, Scripture clearly says: Matthew 16:24 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. And again: 1 Peter 2:21 For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps: That clearly states that Jesus died in order to illicit a response from us. Not in order that you will no longer do anything else. 2 Corinthians 5:15 And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again. DM- There are many Scriptures to support both Teachings, but here is one, show me where it is out of context: Luke 12:33Sell that ye have, and give alms; provide yourselves bags which wax not old, a treasure in the heavens that faileth not, where no thief approacheth, neither moth corrupteth. BL-You are focusing on heaven not worldly wealth that is fleeting at best. DM-You're right. I am focusing on heaven. And not on worldly wealth. Jesus said that by giving away our worldly wealth (ie almsgiving), we accumulate treasure in heaven. It sounds as though Jesus is saying we can buy our way into heaven. Now, please try again. I don't see how I'm taking it out of context. I am focusing on heaven. That's what we are supposed to do. I don't think you mean to tell me that focusing on heaven is an error. Scripture says: Matthew 6:33 But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you. DM-Notice that Jesus is Teaching us to buy our way into heaven. BL-Where do you get the idea besides Tobit that you can buy your way into heaven? DM-There where Jesus says to give alms, which is the giving of money to the poor or to the Church. He describes this action as producing an accumulation of treasure in heaven. BL-With our alms we buy bags of heavenly treasure. With what we do we do for God not for something. DM-Really? God needs our coin? For what? DM-Question, what is the heavenly treasure for? Answer, to release us from Purgatory. BL-You can not be released from a place that does not exist. DM-Then what is this place? 1 Peter 3:19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; BL-If purgatory did exist you would find Jesus and the apostles teaching about the afterlife and a final cleanup. You do not because there is no need for any final cleanup and everything that is unclean will not be in heaven and Jesus has made you clean. DM-They do teach and it can be found in many places. See here: Revelation 2:10 Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life. DM-What is another name for the heavenly treasure? Indulgences. BL-Amazing how you can believe what you write! DM-And I can back it up. BL-A verse out of context. What is therefore there for? It tells you that the belief in the resurrection discussed in the preceding chapter is what Paul is referencing here , not that all traditions must be accepted. DM-So all you need to believe is the resurrection? Is that what you mean? BL-No that is not what I said , What is therefore There for? The context of that verse is found in the first 14 verses and refers to those 14 verses. It does not give a blanket statement about all traditions at all. DM-First of all, St. Paul makes it clear that he is not restricting his point to that whch is written since he said: 2 Thessalonians 2:15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle. Whether by WORD or epistle. Whether spoken or written. Next, we can see that he did not mean to hold to the written word only since he also said: 1 Thessalonians 2:13 For this cause also thank we God without ceasing, because, when ye received the word of God which ye heard of us, ye received it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which effectually worketh also in you that believe. The word of God which ye HEARD of us. Thus, it is the Word of God preached and spoken. Not a written word. So, no, the context is not the prior 14 verses. BL-It does not give a blanket statement about all traditions at all. DM-I can find no restriction. Please provide it chapter and verse.

St. Paul said faith and works

Paul did not say faith AND WORKS, he said FAITH, NOT WORKS (Ephesians 2:8,9). This is NOT the kind of faith that remains "alone" in producing good works which demonstrates that it's dead, and James condemns. This is the kind of faith that TRUSTS IN CHRIST ALONE FOR SALVATION. This person is MADE ALIVE IN CHRIST, CREATED IN CHRIST JESUS FOR GOOD WORKS. The good works are the fruit, not the root of our salvation. Once again, Man is saved through faith and not by works; yet faith, if it is true, will be substantiated and confirmed by good works. Your church has this OUT OF BALANCE. So how many good works must you accomplish and add to Christ's finished work of redemption in order to help Him save you? See why you have no assurance of salvation? It's because you are trusting in works for salvation and don't know for sure if they measure up or not.

St. Paul did not say faith ALONE. He said, "doers are justified."

He washes away my sins. I don't literally get it in a sacrament. I certainly don't kill Him again.

We get it exactly as He says. In the Sacrament of the Eucharist.

I'm not talking about His glory. We will never be God. The righteousness of God imputed to us (Romans 4:5-6; Philippians 3:9; 2 Corinthians 5:1-21) does not imply we take His glory. For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ (Galatians 3:27). For by ONE SPIRIT we have all been baptized into ONE BODY (1 Corinthians 12:13). Not to be confused with water baptism.

If you want to walk amongst the Saints in this life, you will be water Baptized, calling on the name of Christ, and He will wash away your sins.

More evidence you trust in works salvation. This says the books (plural) were opened and (another) book (singular) was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books (plural). Their works are not judged to determine if they performed well enough to earn their salvation. For the lost dead, they are judged according to their works to determine their condemnation in the lake of fire. For some it will be greater than others. For believers, they are judged by their works to determine rewards and loss of rewards in heaven (1 Corinthians 3:13-15).

It doesn't say anything about a believers book. Many who say to Christ, Lord, Lord, are in the other book. Many who claim faith ALONE, are in the other book. Many who have been baptized, are in the other book. Many who have received the Sacraments, are in the other book. It is those who have DONE THE WILL OF GOD who are in the book of life. Some who have never known the Gospel or the Old Covenant, but have been faithful to the Law written in their hearts, are in the book of life. Most of all, those who have obeyed Christ and kept His Commands and accepted His Sacraments, they are in the book of life. God knows who they are. We don't.

Christ rose again on the third day. He told the thief on the cross that this day you will be with me in paradise and mentioned absolutely nothing about purgatory. The dogma of purgatory absolutely denies the sufficiency of Christ's atonement for sin on the cross and is a detestable doctrine.

You have no understanding of the doctrine. You have given the definition of it as the determination of our reward. All who are in Purgatory will be saved on the Last Day. You believe in Purgatory and don't even know it.

So his suffering in the flesh caused him to become sinless and bypass purgatory? Yeah right. Sinful desires seem insignificant when one's life is in jeopardy. Suffering for Christ advances the progress of sanctification. This verse has nothing to do with purgatory.

On the contrary, you just don't understand it. But you already explained it and then turned around and denied it.

This verse has nothing to do with purgatory either.

It has to do with the works which the Thief accomplished from the Cross. You didn't even realize it, did you?

Maybe so, which caused him to grow to be more mature in Christ faster, but it was still the blood of Christ that washed away his sins. There were no further sins to suffer for in purgatory. Christ's atonement for sin on the cross is ALLSUFFICIENT. No purgatory necessary. Thank God I have been set free in Christ, know the truth and don't have to live in bondage to such false teachings.

Was the Thief not also suffering? He was CRUCIFIED.

Please continue to prayerfully consider the truth and God bless

You too. I have enjoyed our discussion and I thank you for taking the time to talk to me. It is rare that I get the opportunity to go into detail in matters of Scripture.

May God bless you and yours,

Sincerely,

De Maria

Purgatory described in 1 Cor 3

NC says:
1 Corinthians 3:10 By the grace God has given me, I laid a foundation as a wise builder, and someone else is building on it. But each one should build with care. 11 For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 If anyone builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, 13 their work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each person’s work. 14 If what has been built survives, the builder will receive a reward. 15 If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved—even though only as one escaping through the flames.

Love this passage too. Speaks measures about motives, faith and works. God bless.

Amen! A perfect depiction of the state of Purgatory.

Sincerely,

De Maria

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What does the Bible say about Purgatory?

Although the word "purgatory" is not found in Scripture.  Scripture points to a place of suffering in the after life:

1 Corinthians 3:10-15King James Version (KJV)

10 According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.  11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.  12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;  13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.  14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.  15 If any man's work shall be burned,he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

And Scripture reveals the existence of a spiritual prison where good men go to suffer at the hands of Satan:

Revelation 2:10

10 Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.

 And Scripture also reveals a place where the dead go for 1000 years.

Revelation 20:5 

5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

And another where Jesus preached to spirits in prison.

1 Peter 3:19 

19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

The Catholic Church has given the name Purgatory to this spiritual prison which Scripture speaks of.