KS: You say that because you name it and claim it that you have saved yourself. Have you not listened to anything I have said?


DM-I could ask you the same thing. But I recognize that we disagree with each other. I have heard everything you said, but I disagree.


KS-Romans 8.16, "The Holy Spirit bears witness that we are the children of God." I know that I am saved because I know the Lord; He bears witness to my salvation.


Romans 8, also says:


Romans 8:17 And if we are children, then we are heirs—heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ, provided that we share his sufferings so that we may also share his glory.


Thus, unless you suffer with Christ, you will not share in His glory. Yeah, that is another condition for salvation.


Hebrews 12:8
If you have not received the discipline in which all share, then you are illegitimate and not true sons.


//KS-Moreover, Jesus said, "My Father will give the Holy Spirit to whoever asks of Him." DeMaria says, "Not so! You must be baptized before receiving the Holy Spirit." Or 'asking is only when being baptized.'//


KS-Jesus does NOT play games with words!


DM-It is you playing games with the Word of God. You have made yourself the authority over Scripture and have twisted God's message beyond recognition. Your incoherent, inconsistent, contradictory teachings are signs of the confusion which Satan produces.


Jesus Christ established the Catholic Church and sent her out to Teach His Commands. But you thumb your nose at being taught by men, you are too great for that.


Matthew 28:18 Then Jesus approached them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Go, therefore, and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,[a] 20 and teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the world.”


In your religion, God doesn't have the authority to appoint men to Teach you what He wants you to learn in order to be saved.


When God said to Cornelius, "send for this man". You would have replied, "Me, what for? I can read and understand by my own understanding." Even though Scripture warns against that sort of pride:


Proverbs 3:5 Trust wholeheartedly in the Lord
rather than relying on your own intelligence.


KS-He says 'ask and you will receive.' Yet, you make the Lord a liar by saying, "That's not true. You can only ask by being baptized.' I pray for you. You are in blatant contradiction to Christ.


DM-It is you making Him a liar. Jesus Christ also said:


John 15:10If you keep my commandments,
you will remain in my love,
just as I have kept my Father’s commandments
and remain in his love.


And again:


John 6:51 I am the living bread that came down from heaven.
Whoever eats this bread will live forever;
and the bread that I will give
is my flesh, for the life of the world.”


And also:


John 3:5Jesus said,


“Amen, amen, I say to you,
no one can enter the kingdom of God
unless he is born of water and the Spirit.


And many other requirements Jesus made for one to be saved. But you want to replace Jesus and give your own version of salvation.


//DM: The Catholic Church is waiting for you//
KS: I am already close friends with Jesus Christ. Of what value do I have with those who trample on the words of my Lord?


DM-It is you who trample on His words. The Catholic Church will give you the proper understanding of God's Word.


KS- I hope that you will simply be honest! May God help you to be so. Jesus Christ is the light of the world.


DM-It is you who needs to be honest. You have turned God's Word upside down and continue to make yourself into your own saviour. You have distorted the Gospel of Jesus Christ beyond recognition.


Hebrews 13:8
Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever.


Exodus 20:6 but I will show my favor for a thousand generations of those who love me and observe my commandments.


You don't have the authority to annul God's Word simply because you prefer one verse over the rest of Scripture. Scripture is the Word of God. every word of it is equally inspired.


The Catholic Church is the instrument God has chosen to Teach His Word to the world. She it is who wrote the New Testament and selected the books to be included in the Old Testament. It is to her that you should be listening in order to discover how you will be saved. Just as God told St. Cornelius to send for St. Peter, you need to do the same and send for the Catholic Church.

KS- Hi. I think our entire line of dialogue boils down to this. Jesus said, "My Father will give the Holy Spirit to whoever asks of Him." Your reply is that 'asking' has to be during baptism. I think that negates the words of Christ; I don't think you are being honest.


DM-I have a different opinion.  Our entire dialogue boils down to this question, "who is in authority?" Without saying so directly, you demonstrate that you believe you are in authority.


Evidence for this conclusion.


1. You take one verse out of Scripture and make an entire theology upon it. You discard the rest of Scripture as though it is of no consequence regarding the question of salvation.


2. You have made yourself a special individual to whom you claim that God has given a special privilege of salvation without having to meet the requirements He has set for all others from the beginning.


Whereas, I accept the authority of God and the whole of the Revelation of God through Jesus Christ. I accept that God became man and that Jesus established a Church and Taught that Church the Doctrines He wanted mankind to know.

He then gave that Church the authority and command to make disciples of the world. Disciple means student. So, Jesus expected all of us to learn from the Church which He established to Teach mankind in His place.

The Church went into the world to Teach and wrote the New Testament as an aid in that goal. She also put the Old Testament together as further aid for that purpose.

Through the Church we learn that God has many requirements for the salvation of our souls and that the Church provides us with the grace (and therefore spiritual strength) to achieve this goal, if we desire it.

To summarize:

You have made for yourself a convenient shortcut in order to avoid keeping the Word of God while seeming to accept one verse in Scripture.

While I and all Catholics, obey God's Word entirely.

Baptism is for us and for our children

 ETC said:Acts 16 verse 32 And they spake unto him the word of the lord and to all that were in the house. Ummmmmm last time I spoke to my 3 month old they had NO IDEA what I’m saying. Let alone the gospel.

Hahahahahaha

DM-Therefore you denied your child entrance into the Kingdom of God? That's like saying, "Hey, the kid didn't understand that he shouldn't play in the middle of the highway. Therefore, I left him there." In denying your child entrance into the Kingdom of God, you have rejected the gift of the Holy Spirit indwelling his soul and therefore given him over to Satan. Pray that your child doesn't die before he can make a profession of faith.

ETC-I’m done with you. This just shows u want to argue. ur a heretic end of story. Repent of ur pagan Rome beliefs before it’s too late.

DM-The Catholic Church is the Church that Jesus established and the instrument through which He speaks to the world. Repent of your sins and run to the Catholic Church, you and your household, before its too late.

The Operation of God through Baptism - 3

 

De Maria

20 minutes ago (edited)

 @Emmanuel The King  @De Maria the jehovas witnesses give scripture, mormons, SDA’s etc it’s easy to twist the scripture. DM-True. And Protestants have been twisting Scripture since the time of Martin Luther. ETC-U have a form of godliness but do not know the power of it. Especially regarding salvation. DM-I'll do my best to show you that it is you who are denying the power of the Gospel. ETC-By your beliefs I can baptise a Muslim and because I believe I transfer it to him. What a distortion. the gospel relies on the INDIVIDUAL realising they even need a saviour because they realise they are a sinner. DM-Let's talk about that because you're mixing truth and error in those statements. Let me break down your statement. You said: ETC-By your beliefs I can baptise a Muslim and because I believe I transfer it to him. DM-No, not true. I've been talking about parents baptizing their children. And I compared it to the miracles of Jesus wherein He healed certain children on the faith of their parents. For example, Jairus' daughter. She was dead. Jesus brought here back to life because of the faith of her Dad, Jairus and her Mom. This is comparable to a father and mother bringing their child to be baptized and Jesus' acting through the Sacrament, brings them to eternal life. Furthermore, this is consistent with the Biblical Teaching of intercession. Jesus also healed a paralytic based on the faith of his friends. Mark 2:3-5 King James Version 3 And they come unto him, bringing one sick of the palsy, which was borne of four. 4 And when they could not come nigh unto him for the press, they uncovered the roof where he was: and when they had broken it up, they let down the bed wherein the sick of the palsy lay. 5 When Jesus saw their faith, he said unto the sick of the palsy, Son, thy sins be forgiven thee. Notice what Jesus did here. When He saw the faith of the paralytic's friends. Let me repeat, when He saw the faith of the paralytic's friends. NOT THE PARALYTIC'S FAITH. Jesus forgave the paralytic's sins. He didn't heal him, initially. Understand? He didn't heal him initially. He healed his soul. Thus bringing his soul back to spiritual health. And then, when the Pharisees objected, Jesus said: 10 But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins, (he saith to the sick of the palsy,) 11 I say unto thee, Arise, and take up thy bed, and go thy way into thine house. So, He healed the paralytic's illness in order to show that He has authority to heal the soul. And that is what He does for us in Baptism, He heals our soul and the soul of our beloved children. ETC-What a distortion. the gospel relies on the INDIVIDUAL realising they even need a saviour because they realise they are a sinner. DM-Notice how Jairus' daughter did not realize she needed a Saviour. Nor did she go seeking Jesus. She was already dead. Notice how the Canaanite's daughter did not seek Jesus. Nor did she realize she needed a Saviour. Even the paralytic did not seek to be forgiven. Yet Jesus washed away his sins. And, if your doctrine is true, then what happens to the power of intercession which Scripture demands of us all? We are supposed to intercede for all mankind. 1 Timothy 2:1 I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men; You are denying the power of the Gospel when you claim that God will not grant His grace through an intercessor. ETC-A baby cannot do this. DM-Our children don't need to do it. The gifts which God grants to us extend to our children, as well. Acts 2:39 For the promise is unto you, *and to your children*, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call. Even in the Old Testament this was true: Deuteronomy 29:29 King James Version 29 The secret things belong unto the Lord our God: but those things which are revealed belong unto us and to our children for ever, that we may do all the words of this law. God has revealed the we are saved in Baptism and that gift is for us and for our children. ETC-It is quite amazing that this is a belief of Rome, the city on seven hills spoken of in revelation, that great whore. I could go on and on. DM-Please do. And I will continue to show you your errors.

The Operation of God through Baptism - 2

 ETC- @De Maria

It is total waste of time discussing this with you. DM-Sorry you feel that way. ETK-all you have written in response is catholic tradition, twisting the scripture to what you believe it means. DM-I think I've proven that the Scriptures substantiate the Teachings of Jesus Christ which are passed down through Catholic Tradition. Remember, Jesus didn't write the New Testament. The Catholic Church did so. And she did so, based upon the Teachings of Jesus Christ. These Teachings are otherwise known as, Catholic Tradition. ETK-You have so many holes in ur beliefs it’s honestly mind boggling. DM-If you had identified even one hole in my beliefs, you would have done your best to reveal it. But your response indicates that you were frustrated because you could find no holes in my argument and thus have no recourse but to ease out without admitting defeat. ETK-Just do me one favour, just one! DM-If its reasonable and doesn't cost any money. wink. ETK-Read the book of Ephesians. Just read it for what it says. no catholic bias. Just pray and say god reveal what the scriptures means. DM-And you, do me the same favor. Read the book of Ephesians or any book of the Bible which you choose, without any Protestant presuppositions. May God open your eyes to the Truth which Jesus Christ has passed down through His Church. God bless you.

The Operation of God through Baptism - 1

 

ETC-Wrong! Ephesians 1:13 KJV In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, baptism is a public declaration of obedience to what u have believed. DM-True. But what is it that you believe? You deny the efficacy of the operation of God through Baptism. We believe it. Colossians 2:12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead. For example, Scripture says: Acts 22:16 And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord. The Catholic Church Teaches that our sins are washed away in Baptism, just as Scripture says. But you deny this. Am I right? So, what do you believe? You claim to believe in Christ but the plain word says that Baptism saves, but you deny it: 1 Peter 3:21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us .... ETK-The body and blood is done in REMEMBRANCE for what Christ has done for you. DM-So it is. And again, you claim its only an unnecessary symbol. Thereby denying the power of Jesus Christ. Do you believe that the Old Testament is greater than the New? I don't. Scripture says: Hebrews 8:6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises. Let's compare the Bread of Life to the manna of heaven. Jesus said: John 6:51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world. Thus, over and again He reiterates that the Eucharist is His flesh. His Body. John 6:53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you. Jesus says His bread is His Flesh. You deny it. Jesus says His bread saves. You deny it. Tell me, if the Eucharist is just a symbol, how is it better than the manna? How is it a better promise, since the bread we use for the Eucharist is made by growing wheat on a farm and mixing with water and baking. Yet, the manna was sent down from heaven? ETK-Salvation is a ONE time transaction. DM-and you therefore cheapen salvation, as though your mere words would be enough to claim for yourself something which Saints endured agony upon agony to receive. Read the Scripture. Haven't you seen that: Philippians 1:29 For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake; Romans 8:17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together. ETK-Read Ephesians and various other church age books and you will CLEARLY see you are believing a lie DM-I believe I have clearly shown that you don't understand the power of the Gospel. Read the entire Bible and see how Jesus Christ is the source and summit of our faith.

Can a 2 month old believe? - 3

 

ETC- You said: Saved by grace through faith.

DM-That is a description of that which occurs in the Sacraments. In the Sacraments, we are saved when we proclaim our faith in Christ and God pours His grace into us in the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit.

Salvation by grace in the Sacraments - 3

 

De Maria

2 days ago

JBG,

BEAUTIFUL! I'd like to add that this is why Catholics are Abraham's children. When we attend the Sacraments, it is because we believe God. God looks into our hearts and counts it to us as righteousness. Therefore, He pours out His grace into our hearts and washes us of our sins. And we are made chldren of God.

Can a 2 month old believe? -2

DM- Answer the questions which I asked. Who's faith did Jesus take into account when He brought the maiden back to life? The maid had died, does a dead body have faith? Therefore, Jesus revived her because of the faith of her parents. 

Luke 8:50-55How about the Canaanite woman's daughter? Who's faith did Jesus take into account, the daughter's or the mother's? Here's what Jesus said:

Matt 15:Then Jesus answered and said unto her, O woman, great is thy faith: be it unto thee even as thou wilt. And her daughter was made whole from that very hour.

Notice that He didn't say, "your daughter's faith is great." But He cured the daughter because of the faith of her mother. In the same way, Jesus brings our children into spiritual life, based upon the faith of the parents.

Can a 2 month old believe? -1

 

ETC-😂😂 it (baptism) requires faith you heretic. Can a 2 month old believe ??? wow

 DM-Well, let's peruse some Scripture. Jesus brought this child back to life by whose faith, the child's? Or the parent's? Luke 8:50 But when Jesus heard it, he answered him, saying, Fear not: believe only, and she shall be made whole.....54 And he put them all out, and took her by the hand, and called, saying, Maid, arise. 55 And her spirit came again, and she arose straightway: and he commanded to give her meat. How about this young lady, by whose faith was she saved, hers or her mother's? Matthew 15:28 Then Jesus answered and said unto her, O woman, great is thy faith: be it unto thee even as thou wilt. And her daughter was made whole from that very hour. Understand that when we baptize our children, it is because of our faith in the operation of God that our children's soul's brought from spiritual death into life with Christ. Colossians 2:12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

The Catholic order is the best

DE MARIA May 8, 2013 at 7:29 pm

UK said:
Catechism1257 The Lord himself affirms that Baptism is necessary for salvation. …The Church does not know of any means other than Baptism that assures entry into eternal beatitude; this is why she takes care … to see that all who can be baptized are “reborn of water and the Spirit.” God has bound salvation to the sacrament of Baptism, but he himself is not bound by his sacraments. 

My reading of Jn 3 v5 AND 6 is that ‘water’ related to the natural birth of man through his mother’s uterine waters.

Because one is naturally born through the “uterine waters” of their mother, water is an apt symbol of birth. Therefore, in Water Baptism, the water poured on our bodies signifies and brings about the new birth of the Creature by the Spirit.

What then matters is subsequently being born of the Spirit. ‘Reborn’ is incorrect and very misleading if it implies that water is an agent of rebirth.

On the contrary, your statement simply shows a lack of faith in Christ. It is akin to Namaan who denied that God could cure him by the action of washing seven times in the waters of the Jordan. We believe that God can cause our new birth through water.

This antithesis between earth and heaven is continued in v6 with flesh v spirit.
The first line of 1257 is clearly wrong because Jesus Himself accepted the thief on the cross into His kingdom unbaptised.

On the contrary.  Christ certainly accepted the Good Thief.  But there are reasons why he is called the Good Thief and which are the basis of his salvation by Jesus Christ.

1. Scripture does not say that the Good Thief was not baptized.

2. Scripture says that everyone in Judea was baptized by St. John.

Matthew 3:5-7

King James Version (KJV)

5 Then went out to him Jerusalem, and all Judaea, and all the region round about Jordan, 6 And were baptized of him in Jordan, confessing their sins.


3. Jesus and His disciples also baptized many.

John 3:22-24

King James Version (KJV)

22 After these things came Jesus and his disciples into the land of Judaea; and there he tarried with them, and baptized.


4. In addition, Catholic Doctrine says that one may be baptized of blood. The Good Thief definitely meets this criteria since he was crucified alongside Jesus.

5. Catholic Doctrine also says that one must suffer with Christ to be saved. The Good Thief meets this criteria.

And finally, Catholic Doctrine says that one is saved if God says that one is saved. Jesus is God and Jesus saved the Good Thief, whether he was baptized or not.

Fortunately the last sentence of 1257 gainsays the first by removing it as an essential step.1257 also states “The Church does not know of any means other than Baptism…” Jesus mentions only belief in John 5 v 24. Yes, water baptism is important but I am not even sure that the Great Commission must of necessity mean water baptism as opposed to baptising in/into/with the Spirit

God has set out a normal means of salvation by the Church. If anyone strikes out on their own to be saved according to their own ideas, they are on their own. But God has been very clear that He saves the obedient:

Hebrews 5:9  And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

I hope you will retain any earlier appreciation that creeds and catechisms are fallible.

Perhaps. But Catholic Doctrine is infallible because the Church is the Pillar of Truth (1 Tim 3:15).

This came home to me forcibly when I saw that Catholic Teaching had massaged and thereby set out 10 different Commandments from the ones listed in Exodus (and Deuteronomy)

They are the exact same Commandments. Protestants have changed some things but the Catholic order is the best.


Sincerely,


De Maria

Jesus saves children because of the faith of their parents.

De Maria October 24, 2012 at 10:48 AM

You said,
Hi De Maria,Thanks very much for your response. I see at least you have the acumen of responding. Which is good indeed.

Thank you.

In taking verses out of context, I stated John 3:5 because that’s one of the footnotes at the bottom of the CCC,

Correct.

the Catholic Church relies for scriptural support in respect to baptism. John’s baptism of repentance is found in Mark 1:4, Luke 3:3, Acts 13:24, and more specifically Acts 19:4.

Correct.

So i am simply pointing that John 3:5 is out of context because you cannot lead a person to become a Christian because John’s Baptism of Repentance was during the period covering the Gospels.

That would be a misunderstanding of John 3:5, Jesus is describing that which occurs in His Baptism:

5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

St. John’s Baptism did not bring the gift of the Holy Spirit. The Baptism in the name of Jesus, does.

Why?? Simply because during the period covering the Gospels, the Lord had not risen and glorified as yet.

That is true. But Jesus was not explaining St. John’s Baptism, but His own.

Therefore the Holy Ghost was promised only after his Ascension.

Also true.

Christian initiation actually starts in the the Book of Acts and not the Gospels.

That is a mistake. Christian initiation began when Jesus started teaching His disciples. In fact, we can also say that Christian initiation began when St. John began preparing the way for Christ.

That is why St.Paul stated it in Acts 19:4.

Acts 19:4
King James Version (KJV)
4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.

He mentions that St. John was preparing people to believe in Christ. Which can be understood as a type of Christian initiation. Unless you have a specific and personal understanding of the term “Christian initiation”. For Catholics, it means an introduction to the doctrines and the faith of Jesus Christ.

In fact there has always been a four-fold pattern Jesus and his Apostles always consistently preached a pattern in the entire New Testament. i.e REPENT for you sins, BELIEVE on the Lord Jesus, Be BAPTIZED, and RECEIVE the Holy Ghost.

That is the same pattern which the Catholic Church preaches today.

This is the correct pattern we can see on location how the Apostles led inquirers to the Christian faith (Acts 2:38, Acts 2:41). In fact Jesus and John the Baptist always pointed to that four-fold pattern but scattered throughout the Gospels, Acts and the Epistles. But in the Book of Hebrews Chapter 6 they surprisingly appear in that order.

Why surprisingly? It is the pattern which has always been taught. It is Protestants who have deviated from that pattern with their so-called “altar calls” and denials of Baptism as the culmination of Christian initiation.

OK so you talk about the RCIA. Does this means those baptized as babies have also have to compulsory undergo RCIA?

Infants follow a different pattern. Throughout the New Testament, we see that Jesus saves children because of the faith of their parents. Example:

Matthew 15:28
Then Jesus answered and said unto her, O woman, great is thy faith: be it unto thee even as thou wilt. And her daughter was made whole from that very hour.

Jesus saves infants because of the faith of their parents.

Does the RCIA follow the Biblical pattern I’ve covered above?

Yes.

Also please note that during John’s baptism in Gospel required one to first become a disciple of Christ and then be baptized, by first showing “fruit meets for repentance” – Matthew 3:7-9. Does the RCIA cover this?

Yes.

Thanks and God Bless you,

May God bless you as well,

Sincerely,

De Maria