Evangelicals do not agree with Catholic Teaching

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Your explanations betray your ignorance of the different views that evangelicals have on eternal security.

I don't concern myself with the errors of men but only with the eternal truth of the Word of God.

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Not all evangelicals believe in what you are claiming they believe.

Enough of them do that I can make a valid point against their theology.

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Therefore, when I and other posters articulate a very evangelical understanding of salvation, faith, and works, you are confused because it looks very similar to Catholic teaching, and yet it contradicts what you've come to think the "evangelical" position is.

It is you who made it seem as though Evangelicals unanimously believed what you are teaching. But you have now admitted that you follow a more Catholic position on this matter than the average Evangelical. Although your position, is itself, an error.

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I find that the Catholics on this forum tend to believe that all evangelicals believe in Once Saved Always Saved, and that is a universally held doctrine among evangelical churches.

It may not be completely universal. But enough Evangelicals believe it that we may safely generalize that they all do. Whenever the odd Evangelical appears who holds a slightly different variant of that belief, we can handle those argumens, case by case. Suffice to say, that if the variant does not agree with the Catholic Teaching, it is still in contradiction of the Word of God in Scripture, as well.

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It is not, and many, many evangelicals find it an abhorrent theology.

That is good to hear. Now if they would only take the next step and embrace the Catholic Church, it would be wonderful!

Good talking to you,

Sincerely,


De Maria

Is there a Scripture you are having trouble lining up to Catholic Doctrine?

Is there a verse in Scripture which doesn't make sense to you?  Let me know and I'll see if I can explain it.  If nothing else, it will be good exercise for me.  I love to research Scripture and Catholic Doctrine.  And I especially love to connect the two.

Believing in scriptures for doctrine is Catholic Teaching

Calvina:
Believing in scriptures for doctrine and testing all doctrine against scripture is not a man made tradition. It is Gods Word.

It is also a Catholic doctrine. Notice that you did not say, Scripture alone. If you insert the word "alone" after Scripture, then it becomes a false and man made doctrine. However, one of the tests of the truth of a doctrine is to compare it to Scripture. And that is what I'm about to do with your false doctrine of sola Scriptura. I'm going to compare it to the Scripture you provided below.

All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness(2 tim 3:16)

2 Timothy 2:15, KJV

Lets break this down. 

First, this says, All scripture not Scripture alone. Why? Because it is not true that Scripture alone is inspired by God. So is Tradition. So is the preaching of Holy men. Here's the proof:

2 Peter 1:21-22

King James Version (KJV)
²¹ For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

Holy men of God were inspired by the Holy Ghost. Therefore, it is not true that Scripture ALONE is inspired of God. Here's another:
John 20:22

King James Version (KJV)
²² And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:

Jesus is God and He breathed upon these men. Therefore, they are God breathed, or inspired. Again disproving the Protestant doctrine that Scripture alone is God breathed.

So, what does it mean to say that "Scripture is God breathed"? It is a poetical and shorthand way of saying that God inspired men to preach and then to write the Word of God in Scripture. But the word "alone" is an addition to the word of God by fallible and unfaithful men who put themselves above the Word of God.

Lets continue. Does the verse say that Scripture alone is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction and for instruction? No. The word alone is not found anywhere. And profitable does not mean "necessary". It simply means useful. Many things are profitable for the instruction of the man of God.

Acts 20:20
And how I kept back nothing that was profitable unto you, but have shewed you, and have taught you publicly, and from house to house,

Many things which the Apostle Paul taught were profitable.

1 Timothy 4:8
For bodily exercise profiteth little: but godliness is profitable unto all things, having promise of the life that now is, and of that which is to come.
All Godliness is profitable to man's soul.
Titus 3:8
This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men.
Good works are also profitable.

But here's the kicker. All Scripture is profitable for doctrine, reproof, correction and instruction in righteousness. Who is doing the reproofing, correction and instruction? The Preacher or Teacher. Scripture does not preach itself. Scripture does not teach itself. Scripture does not correct those who misunderstand the Word of God written within its pages.

Scripture alone is a tradition of men.

Finally, all you really have to do is read 2 Tim 3:16 within the context it was written and you'll see that St. Paul was not writing about Scripture alone but about the passing on of the Faith by Tradition:

2 Tim 1:¹³ Hold fast the form of sound words, which thou hast heard of me, in faith and love which is in Christ Jesus.
¹⁴ That good thing which was committed unto thee keep by the Holy Ghost which dwelleth in us.

2 Timothy 2

King James Version (KJV)
1 Thou therefore, my son, be strong in the grace that is in Christ Jesus.
² And the things that thou hast heard of me among many witnesses, the same commit thou to faithful men, who shall be able to teach others also.



2 Timothy 4

King James Version (KJV)
1 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;
² Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all long suffering and doctrine.

That's about passing down Tradition. Not about handing out books.


Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
Show me where that says to study the Scripture alone. Because Scripture says that:
1. it is advisable to let the Church guide us through Scripture:Acts 8:30-32

King James Version (KJV)
³⁰ And Philip ran thither to him, and heard him read the prophet Esaias, and said, Understandest thou what thou readest?
³¹ And he said, How can I, except some man should guide me? And he desired Philip that he would come up and sit with him.
³² The place of the scripture which he read was this, He was led as a sheep to the slaughter; and like a lamb dumb before his shearer, so opened he not his mouth:

2. In addition, Scripture says we should study the faith of other men:
Hebrews 13:7

King James Version (KJV)
⁷ Remember them which have the rule over you, who have spoken unto you the word of God: whose faith follow, considering the end of their conversation.
So, show me where the verse you presented says anything about Scripture ALONE?



"And the brethren immediately sent away Paul and Silas by night unto Berea: who coming thither went into the synagogue of the Jews. These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so."
Acts 17:10-11, KJV

Excellent! What is the difference between the Thessalonicans and the Bereans? Is it that the Thessalonicans did not receive the Scriptures? Or that they did not receive the Traditions of Christ?
The Thessalonicans were also Jews. They already had the Scriptures. They refused to believe the Traditions of Christ taught by the Church, represented by Sts. Paul and Silas. 
Acts 17

King James Version (KJV)
1 Now when they had passed through Amphipolis and Apollonia, they came to Thessalonica, where was a synagogue of the Jews:
² And Paul, as his manner was, went in unto them, and three sabbath days reasoned with them out of the scriptures,
³ Opening and alleging, that Christ must needs have suffered, and risen again from the dead; and that this Jesus, whom I preach unto you, is Christ.
⁴ And some of them believed, and consorted with Paul and Silas; and of the devout Greeks a great multitude, and of the chief women not a few.
⁵ But the Jews which believed not, moved with envy, took unto them certain lewd fellows of the baser sort, and gathered a company, and set all the city on an uproar, and assaulted the house of Jason, and sought to bring them out to the people.

The Bereans were more noble because they accepted the Traditions taught by the Church and found them in the Scriptures. That is the Catholic doctrine of Tradition, Scripture and Magisterium!

"Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world."
1 John 4:1, KJV

Absolutely true! That is how Luther was discovered. The Church applied the test of Scripture, Tradition and Magisterium upon his teachings and they were found wanting.

You are also wrong as we do not reject the body of Christ His church...we believe in the body of Christ, the true believers, as His church.

You reject the True Church and accept a false gathering of people who oppose the Word of God.

It is those who think they can change scripture and make up traditions that are nullifying Christ:

The Protestants, beginning with Luther, fit that description.

"The Pope has power to change times, to abrogate laws, and to dispense with all things, even the precepts of Christ. The Pope has authority and has often exercised it, to dispense with the command of Christ." - Decretal, de Tranlatic Episcop. Cap.

I have no idea who wrote that, but I guarantee you that it is not a teaching of the Church.

"...the church is above the Bible, and the transference of Sabbath observance is proof of that fact" Catholic Record of London, Ontario Sept 1,1923.

I don't know who that is either. Here's the official teaching from the Church:
86 "Yet this Magisterium is not superior to the Word of God, but is its servant. It teaches only what has been handed on to it. At the divine command and with the help of the Holy Spirit, it listens to this devotedly, guards it with dedication and expounds it faithfully. All that it proposes for belief as being divinely revealed is drawn from this single deposit of faith."

"The authority of the church could therefore not be bound to the authority of the Scriptures, because the Church had changed...the Sabbath into Sunday, not by command of Christ, but by its own authority." Canon and Tradition, p. 263

That's true. Christ gave the Church authority to bind and loose:
Matthew 16:18-19

King James Version (KJV)
¹⁸ And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
¹⁹ And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

Matthew 18:18

King James Version (KJV)
¹⁸ Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

As a result the Church, to whom the transmission and interpretation of Revelation is entrusted, "DOES NOT derive her certainty about all revealed truths from the holy Scriptures alone. BOTH SCRIPTURE AND TRADITION MUST BE ACCEPTED AND HONORED WITH EQUAL SENTIMENTS OF DEVOTION AND REVERENCE. Catechism of Catholic Doctrine Page 31

Absolutely true! Here is what the Scripture says:
2 Thessalonians 2:14-16

King James Version (KJV)
¹⁴ Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.
¹⁵ Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.
....2 Thessalonians 3

King James Version (KJV)
⁶ Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye withdraw yourselves from every brother that walketh disorderly, and not after the tradition which he received of us.
That is pretty plain speaking. Hold the Traditions and stay away from those who don't.

Sincerely,

De Maria

Show me from Scripture that we shouldn't attempt to save ourselves.

Lutero:
Hence the problem.

Show me from Scripture. Here's what I see:
1 Timothy 4:16

King James Version (KJV)
¹⁶ Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.

Show me from Scripture that we shouldn't attempt to save ourselves.

Sincerely,

De Maria

That is actually close to the truth.

Luther:

RCC calls Jesus Savior.

Correct.

However, it then goes on and on and on and on about OUR good words, OUR lives, OUR obedence, OUR heart - as what saves.

Not true. The Catholic Church teaches that GOD SAVES those who do the good works which He commands. Let me show you from Scripture:

Matthew 25:31-46

King James Version (KJV)
³¹ When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
³² And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
³³ And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
³⁴ Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
³⁵ For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
³⁶ Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
³⁷ Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
³⁸ When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
³⁹ Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
⁴⁰ And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
⁴¹ Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
⁴² For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
⁴³ I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
⁴⁴ Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
⁴⁵ Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
⁴⁶ And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

Now, lets consider. The Sheep did the works which God commanded. Therefore God called them righteous and they were rewarded with eternal life.

The Goats did not do the works which God commanded. They claimed to believe though, that is evidenced by the fact they called Him, "Lord". But they did not obey. Therefore they were sent to eternal punishment.

Therefore, faith alone is dead. They are saved who by faith do the works of God.

As soon as any Protestant says Christ saves, the Catholic is quick to jump in and remove the sufficiency of that - ADDING that "but we must....."

Scripture does that. We simply tell you what Scripture teaches and you refuse to believe us as you refuse to believe Scripture:
Hebrews 5:9

King James Version (KJV)
⁹ And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

The end result is that Jesus is not the Savior. Jesus is the HELPER.

No. For the Catholic Church, Jesus is the Saviour and we are the helpers.

For Protestants, you each claim to be your own saviours by your faith alone. Jesus neither helps nor judges nor recommends nor suggests nor has anything to do with how you save yourselves. 

WE couldn't be saved without Jesus doing His thing, but salvation actually depends on the one you see in the mirror.
The RC Denomination exists to help us save ourselves.

That is actually close to the truth. As Scripture says:
1 Timothy 4:16

King James Version (KJV)
¹⁶ Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.

Yeah, the Catholic Church helps you to learn how to save yourself by obeying Jesus Christ. Whereas, Protestants are described best in these words:

Matthew 23:13

King James Version (KJV)
¹³ But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.

Sincerely,

De Maria