Saved by grace in the Sacraments - 7

 

De Maria

3 hours ago (edited)

 BL-Purgatory and indulgences are both taught as truth but the only way to provide biblical verses to prove them is by taking verses out of context. DM-Ok, well thanks for taking up the challenge. DM-Let's see. Thanks for combining Purgatory and indulgences since they are basically the same Teaching. Both are based on the fact that there is a Heavenly Treasury where our good works are stored and God uses them to cleanse our souls of sin. BL-Well that sounds good but can you back that " based on the fact that " up with scripture? DM-Yes. Jesus said: Matt 6:20 But lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven How do we do that? In that chapter, Jesus named many things we must do. verse 1-4 give alms verse 5-12 pray verse 13-15 forgive verse 16-19 fast These lead to the conclusion that if we do all these things, we lay up treasure in heaven. Do you have an alternate understanding of this chapter? BL-God uses our good works to cleanse our souls of sin ? So all we need to do is accept Tobit 12:9 as truth and we no longer need Jesus dieing on the cross for all of our sins and washing us in His blood to cleabnse us of all unrighteousness. 1 John 1:9 DM-Sounds as though you want to be rid of the entire Bible and rely only on Tobit 12:9. Whereas, we accept the entire Bible. But lets focus on Jesus death on the Cross for a moment. You seem to believe that He died on the Cross in order that you would not have to do anything else, but skip your way into heaven. Whereas, Scripture clearly says: Matthew 16:24 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. And again: 1 Peter 2:21 For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps: That clearly states that Jesus died in order to illicit a response from us. Not in order that you will no longer do anything else. 2 Corinthians 5:15 And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again. DM- There are many Scriptures to support both Teachings, but here is one, show me where it is out of context: Luke 12:33Sell that ye have, and give alms; provide yourselves bags which wax not old, a treasure in the heavens that faileth not, where no thief approacheth, neither moth corrupteth. BL-You are focusing on heaven not worldly wealth that is fleeting at best. DM-You're right. I am focusing on heaven. And not on worldly wealth. Jesus said that by giving away our worldly wealth (ie almsgiving), we accumulate treasure in heaven. It sounds as though Jesus is saying we can buy our way into heaven. Now, please try again. I don't see how I'm taking it out of context. I am focusing on heaven. That's what we are supposed to do. I don't think you mean to tell me that focusing on heaven is an error. Scripture says: Matthew 6:33 But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you. DM-Notice that Jesus is Teaching us to buy our way into heaven. BL-Where do you get the idea besides Tobit that you can buy your way into heaven? DM-There where Jesus says to give alms, which is the giving of money to the poor or to the Church. He describes this action as producing an accumulation of treasure in heaven. BL-With our alms we buy bags of heavenly treasure. With what we do we do for God not for something. DM-Really? God needs our coin? For what? DM-Question, what is the heavenly treasure for? Answer, to release us from Purgatory. BL-You can not be released from a place that does not exist. DM-Then what is this place? 1 Peter 3:19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; BL-If purgatory did exist you would find Jesus and the apostles teaching about the afterlife and a final cleanup. You do not because there is no need for any final cleanup and everything that is unclean will not be in heaven and Jesus has made you clean. DM-They do teach and it can be found in many places. See here: Revelation 2:10 Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life. DM-What is another name for the heavenly treasure? Indulgences. BL-Amazing how you can believe what you write! DM-And I can back it up. BL-A verse out of context. What is therefore there for? It tells you that the belief in the resurrection discussed in the preceding chapter is what Paul is referencing here , not that all traditions must be accepted. DM-So all you need to believe is the resurrection? Is that what you mean? BL-No that is not what I said , What is therefore There for? The context of that verse is found in the first 14 verses and refers to those 14 verses. It does not give a blanket statement about all traditions at all. DM-First of all, St. Paul makes it clear that he is not restricting his point to that whch is written since he said: 2 Thessalonians 2:15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle. Whether by WORD or epistle. Whether spoken or written. Next, we can see that he did not mean to hold to the written word only since he also said: 1 Thessalonians 2:13 For this cause also thank we God without ceasing, because, when ye received the word of God which ye heard of us, ye received it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which effectually worketh also in you that believe. The word of God which ye HEARD of us. Thus, it is the Word of God preached and spoken. Not a written word. So, no, the context is not the prior 14 verses. BL-It does not give a blanket statement about all traditions at all. DM-I can find no restriction. Please provide it chapter and verse.

A refutation of Sola Scriptura

Bob says:
If the Real Presence is true it leads to the conclusion that Jesus has another nature i.e. bread and wine. 

That is a misunderstanding of the Catholic Doctrine. Transubstantiation means that the bread and wine are no longer there. Only the appearance. Jesus is there present Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity. 

I repeat, NO BREAD AND WINE. The bread and wine are gone. 

The other problem is that the bread and wine have no characteristics of deity.

No one claims that bread and wine are deities. It is a straw man argument which you are making up.

Oh, you asked me a question which I had no opportunity to answer. You also asked:

You brought up this passage as a refutation of Sola Scriptura–”Let’s compare. You preach the Bible alone, which is the doctrine of “Sola Scriptura”. What does Scripture truly say?

2 Thessalonians 2:15King James Version (KJV)15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.”

Let me ask you: What traditions is Paul referring to here? 

All the Traditions. Including the ones that Protestants refuse to believe.

Surely he is not referring to

Yes, he is.

the Marian dogmas, 

The Queenship of Mary-Rev 12:1

a celibate leaderships

1 Cor 7:32-33

or purgatory

1 Cor 3:15

because these things were unknown in the NT and for centuries. 

They were taught by the Apostles. The reason you don’t recognize them in the NT is because you discarded many of the Traditions of Jesus Christ.

So what “traditions” is Paul referring to?

All of them. Including the ones that Protestants disregarded and cast aside.

Sincerely,

De Maria

Believing in scriptures for doctrine is Catholic Teaching

Calvina:
Believing in scriptures for doctrine and testing all doctrine against scripture is not a man made tradition. It is Gods Word.

It is also a Catholic doctrine. Notice that you did not say, Scripture alone. If you insert the word "alone" after Scripture, then it becomes a false and man made doctrine. However, one of the tests of the truth of a doctrine is to compare it to Scripture. And that is what I'm about to do with your false doctrine of sola Scriptura. I'm going to compare it to the Scripture you provided below.

All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness(2 tim 3:16)

2 Timothy 2:15, KJV

Lets break this down. 

First, this says, All scripture not Scripture alone. Why? Because it is not true that Scripture alone is inspired by God. So is Tradition. So is the preaching of Holy men. Here's the proof:

2 Peter 1:21-22

King James Version (KJV)
²¹ For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

Holy men of God were inspired by the Holy Ghost. Therefore, it is not true that Scripture ALONE is inspired of God. Here's another:
John 20:22

King James Version (KJV)
²² And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:

Jesus is God and He breathed upon these men. Therefore, they are God breathed, or inspired. Again disproving the Protestant doctrine that Scripture alone is God breathed.

So, what does it mean to say that "Scripture is God breathed"? It is a poetical and shorthand way of saying that God inspired men to preach and then to write the Word of God in Scripture. But the word "alone" is an addition to the word of God by fallible and unfaithful men who put themselves above the Word of God.

Lets continue. Does the verse say that Scripture alone is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction and for instruction? No. The word alone is not found anywhere. And profitable does not mean "necessary". It simply means useful. Many things are profitable for the instruction of the man of God.

Acts 20:20
And how I kept back nothing that was profitable unto you, but have shewed you, and have taught you publicly, and from house to house,

Many things which the Apostle Paul taught were profitable.

1 Timothy 4:8
For bodily exercise profiteth little: but godliness is profitable unto all things, having promise of the life that now is, and of that which is to come.
All Godliness is profitable to man's soul.
Titus 3:8
This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men.
Good works are also profitable.

But here's the kicker. All Scripture is profitable for doctrine, reproof, correction and instruction in righteousness. Who is doing the reproofing, correction and instruction? The Preacher or Teacher. Scripture does not preach itself. Scripture does not teach itself. Scripture does not correct those who misunderstand the Word of God written within its pages.

Scripture alone is a tradition of men.

Finally, all you really have to do is read 2 Tim 3:16 within the context it was written and you'll see that St. Paul was not writing about Scripture alone but about the passing on of the Faith by Tradition:

2 Tim 1:¹³ Hold fast the form of sound words, which thou hast heard of me, in faith and love which is in Christ Jesus.
¹⁴ That good thing which was committed unto thee keep by the Holy Ghost which dwelleth in us.

2 Timothy 2

King James Version (KJV)
1 Thou therefore, my son, be strong in the grace that is in Christ Jesus.
² And the things that thou hast heard of me among many witnesses, the same commit thou to faithful men, who shall be able to teach others also.



2 Timothy 4

King James Version (KJV)
1 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;
² Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all long suffering and doctrine.

That's about passing down Tradition. Not about handing out books.


Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
Show me where that says to study the Scripture alone. Because Scripture says that:
1. it is advisable to let the Church guide us through Scripture:Acts 8:30-32

King James Version (KJV)
³⁰ And Philip ran thither to him, and heard him read the prophet Esaias, and said, Understandest thou what thou readest?
³¹ And he said, How can I, except some man should guide me? And he desired Philip that he would come up and sit with him.
³² The place of the scripture which he read was this, He was led as a sheep to the slaughter; and like a lamb dumb before his shearer, so opened he not his mouth:

2. In addition, Scripture says we should study the faith of other men:
Hebrews 13:7

King James Version (KJV)
⁷ Remember them which have the rule over you, who have spoken unto you the word of God: whose faith follow, considering the end of their conversation.
So, show me where the verse you presented says anything about Scripture ALONE?



"And the brethren immediately sent away Paul and Silas by night unto Berea: who coming thither went into the synagogue of the Jews. These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so."
Acts 17:10-11, KJV

Excellent! What is the difference between the Thessalonicans and the Bereans? Is it that the Thessalonicans did not receive the Scriptures? Or that they did not receive the Traditions of Christ?
The Thessalonicans were also Jews. They already had the Scriptures. They refused to believe the Traditions of Christ taught by the Church, represented by Sts. Paul and Silas. 
Acts 17

King James Version (KJV)
1 Now when they had passed through Amphipolis and Apollonia, they came to Thessalonica, where was a synagogue of the Jews:
² And Paul, as his manner was, went in unto them, and three sabbath days reasoned with them out of the scriptures,
³ Opening and alleging, that Christ must needs have suffered, and risen again from the dead; and that this Jesus, whom I preach unto you, is Christ.
⁴ And some of them believed, and consorted with Paul and Silas; and of the devout Greeks a great multitude, and of the chief women not a few.
⁵ But the Jews which believed not, moved with envy, took unto them certain lewd fellows of the baser sort, and gathered a company, and set all the city on an uproar, and assaulted the house of Jason, and sought to bring them out to the people.

The Bereans were more noble because they accepted the Traditions taught by the Church and found them in the Scriptures. That is the Catholic doctrine of Tradition, Scripture and Magisterium!

"Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world."
1 John 4:1, KJV

Absolutely true! That is how Luther was discovered. The Church applied the test of Scripture, Tradition and Magisterium upon his teachings and they were found wanting.

You are also wrong as we do not reject the body of Christ His church...we believe in the body of Christ, the true believers, as His church.

You reject the True Church and accept a false gathering of people who oppose the Word of God.

It is those who think they can change scripture and make up traditions that are nullifying Christ:

The Protestants, beginning with Luther, fit that description.

"The Pope has power to change times, to abrogate laws, and to dispense with all things, even the precepts of Christ. The Pope has authority and has often exercised it, to dispense with the command of Christ." - Decretal, de Tranlatic Episcop. Cap.

I have no idea who wrote that, but I guarantee you that it is not a teaching of the Church.

"...the church is above the Bible, and the transference of Sabbath observance is proof of that fact" Catholic Record of London, Ontario Sept 1,1923.

I don't know who that is either. Here's the official teaching from the Church:
86 "Yet this Magisterium is not superior to the Word of God, but is its servant. It teaches only what has been handed on to it. At the divine command and with the help of the Holy Spirit, it listens to this devotedly, guards it with dedication and expounds it faithfully. All that it proposes for belief as being divinely revealed is drawn from this single deposit of faith."

"The authority of the church could therefore not be bound to the authority of the Scriptures, because the Church had changed...the Sabbath into Sunday, not by command of Christ, but by its own authority." Canon and Tradition, p. 263

That's true. Christ gave the Church authority to bind and loose:
Matthew 16:18-19

King James Version (KJV)
¹⁸ And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
¹⁹ And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

Matthew 18:18

King James Version (KJV)
¹⁸ Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

As a result the Church, to whom the transmission and interpretation of Revelation is entrusted, "DOES NOT derive her certainty about all revealed truths from the holy Scriptures alone. BOTH SCRIPTURE AND TRADITION MUST BE ACCEPTED AND HONORED WITH EQUAL SENTIMENTS OF DEVOTION AND REVERENCE. Catechism of Catholic Doctrine Page 31

Absolutely true! Here is what the Scripture says:
2 Thessalonians 2:14-16

King James Version (KJV)
¹⁴ Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.
¹⁵ Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.
....2 Thessalonians 3

King James Version (KJV)
⁶ Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye withdraw yourselves from every brother that walketh disorderly, and not after the tradition which he received of us.
That is pretty plain speaking. Hold the Traditions and stay away from those who don't.

Sincerely,

De Maria