The next part of your message reiterates your opening statement. You say:
The Bible is:The rule (standard, guide) of faith – teaching us what we ought to believe and how to live for the glory of God.
Yet, Scripture says:
Hebrews 13:7
7 Remember them which have the rule over you, who have spoken unto you the word of God: whose faith follow, considering the end of their conversation.
Hebrews 13:7
7 Remember them which have the rule over you, who have spoken unto you the word of God: whose faith follow, considering the end of their conversation.
Correct me if I’m wrong, but that says that our Priests or Elders in the faith are our teachers and guides in the faith. In fact, in the same chapter, St. Paul EXPLICITLY says that they have RULE over us.
Hebrews 13:17
King James Version (KJV)
17 Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.
Hebrews 13:17
King James Version (KJV)
17 Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.
I’m not saying Scripture is not our rule. The Bible is saying that we have more than one rule. The Word of God is taught to us in Tradition, Scripture and by the Magisterium (i.e. the Teaching of the Church).
The infallible rule – incapable of error, certain, not liable to mislead – because it is the Word of God.
Yes. But Scripture teaches us that the Word of God is taught in Tradition and in the Preaching of our Elders AS WELL as in the Bible. Not in the Bible alone. See 2 Thess 2:15; 1 Thess 2:13; and the two verses above; Heb 13:7; 17. There are many more.
The only infallible rule – it contains the whole counsel of God for His people. Christians value religious teachers, but they are fallible (liable to make mistakes). We also value tradition as long as it is consistent with the Scriptures.
Here’s only one of your conundrums. The OT was canonized by the Catholic Church. And the New Testament was written by the Catholic Church. But you claim the Catholic Church is fallible. Therefore, you should be very concerned that the books you have in your Bible are not really inspired Canon. Because a fallible Church put them in the Bible.
But we don’t have that problem. Because we know that the Catholic Church is infallible. And we therefore, know that the New Testament was written infallibly and that the Books of the Bible were selected infallibly.
You have many other problems with that statement because Scripture ITSELF says that some portions are hard to understand (2 Peter 3:16).
Sincerely,
De Maria
June 16, 2012 at 9:39 PM
Lutero, you said:
Christians have full confidence in the Holy Scriptures because they are “given by inspiration” or “God-breathed” – the very Word proceeding from the mouth of God.
Yes, Joel, but that is a metaphor. God didn’t really breathe out the Scriptures. God inspired men to preach and then to write about what they preached. Tradition came first and then Scripture was written to help pass on the Tradition (2 Peter 1:21).
What “The Scriptures say” and what “God says” are the same thing.
That is true. But throughout Scripture, God spoke through men.
That is what Jesus believed.
Jesus is God. Name one book of the Bible which Jesus wrote in His own hand. Point even to one verse. You can’t. Because Jesus established a Church (Matt 16:18) and directed that Church to teach everything He commanded. The Catholic Church teaches the Word of God (Eph 3:10) by word and epistle (2 Thess 2:15).
Sincerely,
De Maria
Sincerely,
De Maria
June 16, 2012 at 9:56 PM
Lutero you also said:
Jesus answered and said to them, “You are mistaken, not knowing the Scriptures nor the power of God. “For in the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels of God in heaven. “But concerning the resurrection of the dead, have you not read what was spoken to you by God, saying, ‘I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.” (Matthew 22:29-32).
It is true that Jesus used the Scriptures in His Teachings. But it is not true that Jesus used the Scriptures alone. Jesus also said, “you have heard that it is said” (Matt 5:38). More importantly, the Scriptures note the following:
Mark 1:21-28
King James Version (KJV)
21 And they went into Capernaum; and straightway on the sabbath day he entered into the synagogue, and taught. 22 And they were astonished at his doctrine: for he taught them as one that had authority, and not as the scribes.
Mark 1:21-28
King James Version (KJV)
21 And they went into Capernaum; and straightway on the sabbath day he entered into the synagogue, and taught. 22 And they were astonished at his doctrine: for he taught them as one that had authority, and not as the scribes.
It is this authority which He passed down to the Church:
Matthew 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. 19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
Matthew 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. 19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
What is read in the Scriptures is God speaking to us!
Through words which men of the Church wrote on a parchment. God speaking to us through the Church.
Therefore the Scriptures are the infallible rule of faith since God can neither lie nor err.
Certainly God is infallible. And certainly the Scriptures are infallible. But Scripture says that the Church is also infallible (1 Tim 3:15).
‘The entirety of Your word is truth, And every one of Your righteous judgments endures forever’ (Psalm 119:160). The teaching of the Bible is free from error and we can have absolute confidence in it.
We do. Especially because God ordained an infallible interpreter who, unlike you and the rest of the Protestant interpreters, does not err in the interpretation of the Word of God in Tradition or Scripture.
Sincerely,
De Maria
Sincerely,
De Maria
June 16, 2012 at 10:06 PM
Lutero, you said:
Moreover, sola Scriptura affirms that all that the Church and every Christian must believe for salvation and godliness is certainly found in the Holy Scriptures.
Where?
The Bible is able to make us wise for salvation which is by faith in Christ Jesus (2 Timothy 3:15,16).
True. But that doesn’t say that the Church is not able to do the same thing. Actually, 2 Tim 3:16 says that the Bible will help the Church to teach, preach, correct and admonish. It doesn’t say, “give the man of God a Bible and let him figure it out.” It says, “profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:” Who is reproving, correcting, and instructing?
In fact, the entire book of 2 Tim is about TEACHING. It’s not about reading the Bible. Read 2 Tim 1:8; 11. And 2 Tim 2:2. Then skip chapter 3 which we are discussing and go to 2 Tim 4:2.
The whole book is about teaching and preaching. St. Paul only mentions the Bible in passing saying that it is PROFITABLE not necessary, for the instruction of the man of God.
Think about it Joel. Jesus did not prepare the Apostles to write. He prepared them to preach. The Church, even your Church, continues to pass on the Word of God PRIMARILY by word of mouth. By Tradition.
The Bible is also useful for teaching and correction so that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly furnished for every good work. God’s revelation for His Church is fully contained in the Holy Bible and there is no important information missing that we should seek elsewhere.
Sincerely,
De Maria
Sincerely,
De Maria
Hi Lutero, you said:The Bible is also useful for teaching and correction so that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly furnished for every good work. God’s revelation for His Church is fully contained in the Holy Bible and there is no important information missing that we should seek elsewhere.
Show me where Scripture says that the Trinity is One God in three Divine Persons. You will find that definition EXPLICITLY in Tradition and only implied in Scripture.
Show me who wrote the Gospel of Mark, in Scripture. You’ll find that information in Tradition. Only implied in Scripture.
All the doctrines of Jesus Christ are found in explicit in Tradition and either explicit or implied in Scripture. Tradition ties up the loose ends. Without the Tradition of the Church, you get chaos. Proof of that is the condition of the Protestant faith right now.
Sincerely,
De Maria
Sincerely,
De Maria
June 17, 2012 at 7:19 AMHaving indicated what sola Scriptura is, we must also discuss what it is not. Sola Scriptura is often misunderstood and misrepresented.
With that, I agree. Most often, by those who espouse it.
Sola Scriptura is not a claim that the Bible contains all knowledge. The Bible does not give exhaustive details on the history of redemption. John 21:25 says that not all that Jesus did is recorded in the book; all the books of the world would not be enough for that purpose. But the Bible does not have to be exhaustive to function as the sole rule of faith for the church. We need ‘enough’ knowledge not ‘exhaustive’ knowledge. Sometimes people argue for the need of tradition, saying that Bible does not record everything. Apparently they do not realize that tradition is not exhaustive either! Does tradition give us all possible information about the life of Christ, and all that He said, and all the apostles did and said? Of course not! In fact, we would respectfully challenge our Catholic friends to give us one statement that Jesus said that comes to us by tradition and not from the Holy Scripture.
FIRST
The idea that the Bible contains all knowledge is still frequently claimed by Sola Scripturists. A quip which they frequently use is, “If it isn’t in the Bible, it isn’t true.”
You can confirm this by simply talking to any Sola Scripturist about Purgatory. The response will be, “That isn’t in Scripture?” When we say, “It is explained in 1 Cor 3:10-15″, they will deny it saying, “I don’t see the word “purgatory”.
So, if Sola Scripturists do not believe that all knowledge is contained in Scripture, they behave as though it is.
2nd. No Catholic has ever claimed that Tradition is exhaustive.
3rd. The Catholic Church teaches that all Christian doctrine can be found in Scripture explicit or implied.
4th. Here is the difference between Sola Scriptura and Catholic doctrine. Not one Catholic doctrine contradicts Scripture. But Sola Scriptura, does. Sola Scriptura even contradicts itself. Because, if what you need to believe is contained in Scripture, then Sola Scriptura should be in Scripture. But it isn’t.
Sincerely,
De Maria
Sincerely,
De Maria
Lutero, you said:
Sola Scriptura is not a denial that historically God’s Word came in other ways other than the written form. Before writing down His message, God spoke through the apostles and prophets, and personally in Christ Jesus, His Son. During the same time the Holy Spirit moved holy men to write down His Word to be the permanent inspired record of His message for the post-apostolic age till the end.
Whoa! You skipped right over the fact that Jesus FIRST established His Church (Matt 16:18) and you skipped the fact that the Church began the preaching and teaching which is commanded by Christ Jesus and which the Church commanded those whom she taught in her stead (Matt 28:19-20; 2 Tim 2:2). And that continues until today. The passing on of the Word of God by the Teaching or as we call it, the Magisterium of the Church. This was commanded by Christ and has never been rescinded.
The apostles and prophets are the foundation of the church (Ephesians 2:20) and though they are absent, we can still build our lives on their teaching which is recorded infallibly in the Holy Scriptures.
And which continues to be passed down by the Church in the Traditions of Jesus Christ.
Sincerely,
De Maria
Sincerely,
De Maria
June 17, 2012 at 10:28 AM
Lutero you said:
Sola Scriptura does not imply that the Bible will always be interpreted correctly, or that there will not be differences and heresies among Christians. Jesus was clear enough in His teaching, yet His disciples often misunderstood Him. The apostles’ message was also perfectly intelligible, and yet all sorts of errors and heresies crept in the early church.
Let’s stop and ponder this for a moment.
When Jesus was walking this earth, those whom He taught could ask Him questions. When He ascended to the Father, He left His teaching authority with the Church, in the person of the Apostles (Matt 18:17-18; 28:20).
When the Apostles were walking this earth, those whom they taught could ask them questions.
And when they were still walking the earth, they were already establishing a hierarchy of Bishops which would continue with their teaching authority (2 Tim 2:2). And they expected us to submit to this authority (Heb 13:17).
And when they were still walking the earth, they were already establishing a hierarchy of Bishops which would continue with their teaching authority (2 Tim 2:2). And they expected us to submit to this authority (Heb 13:17).
There is no such thing as excepting heretical teaching and mixing it with true Christian teaching (Gal 1:8;Titus 3:10). And Scripture is clear that the Church is the Pillar of Truth (1 Tim 3:15).
Similarly, the Bible is not written in a mysterious and cryptic code that needs some infallible decoder to explain its hidden meaning. The Bible is addressed to the ordinary people of God and it can be understood.
By some, but not by all (2 Pet 3:16). The Bible is also clear that not everyone understands the Bible (Acts 8:30-31).
The problem lies not with the clarity of the Bible, but with people who often ignore the Bible or twist the its meaning because of laziness, ignorance and prejudice.
And that is where the Church steps in. In His great Wisdom, Christ established an infallible authority which could combat the lies and errors of these lazy, ignorant and prejudiced people who twist the meaning of Scripture.
‘What is the infallible rule of faith?’ remains a major dividing issue between Catholics and Protestants. And rightly so. We are building on different foundations.
Sincerely,
De Maria
Sincerely,
De Maria
